In which I attempt to answer two different questions at once

If you're new here, we've been carrying on a conversation in which my friend Jess asks questions about our beliefs and we make attempts at answering.
If you would like to start at the beginning of this faith conversation, please click here.

Also, please keep in mind that I don't claim to be right (correct). I don't think anyone can claim that when discussing all aspects of theology. That's why we argue so much, all those different interpretations of things and such. This is just me, sharing my personal thoughts, feelings, and beliefs based on my own experiences, and what bubbles around in my mind and heart.
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"The groaning of creation is not a pretty sound."-Angie

When I was a little girl my parents, my sister, and I would take camping trips Up North with friends and family. I don't remember much about these yearly adventures, it's been a really long time. But I do remember a big, black, scary dog that wandered into our camping space and sat at our fire like a mascot, and a horse on a country road that trampled a car.

They say the things that bring out the most emotion are the things you always remember.

I'm guessing at some time those memories will continue to fade, but there's one thing I'll never forget. And that's the day a little girl with blond hair was pulled from the lake to the shore, lifeless. She was gone. Her parents were left without her. What was left was a heaviness that hovered around that wide open space, the murmurs of grown-up speak, and my own confusion.

I didn't look to God, asking those difficult questions that I ask now. I simply wanted to know what her parents were supposed to do without her? Even at a young age I understood that parents need their children to be who they are, who they became when that new little person joined their family.

But it didn't surprise me that such a thing could happen. As a young girl, I think I more easily accepted that life holds both beauty and ugliness, disease and health, danger and safety, good and evil.

I was emotionally affected, but not doubting the goodness of God. I readily accepted that God is the beauty, the health, the safety and the good. I understood more easily that He was a shelter from this life, a loving Father who was very sad when something went terribly wrong.

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Is it that I'm just more aware as I grow older? Is it the fact that I'm a part of the internet now, seeing so many sad stories, or is it really getting worse?

I guess it doesn't really matter. What matters is what we make of it. How do we go about loving each other? We have to, it's all that we can do.

There are times when I want to hide. I want to find a place in my own comfort zone and just ignore the groans. And then there are times when I just want to take it all in and see what I can do about it.

No matter what time it is, I want the groaning, the pain and sickness and dying to stop.

I can try to wax theological all I want, but I doubt that even twenty years in seminary would give me all the answers. I could approach it all psychologically, I'm good at that, I have a degree there. But no amount of therapy or understanding of the human brain could take away the pain. All I can do is pray, and even then I will not have all the answers in this life. There are some things that our mere human minds can't possibly ever know.

So many people ask me how I have any faith at all. What does it all mean? Why doesn't God stop this roller coaster ride and let us all off?

Do you want to know the truth?

I don't know.

I can only go so far with my answers before I hit a dead end. That end is usually at the question "Well sure, God works things together for good, He comforts, He loves, He cries...but if He's an all-powerful God why did He let us go our own way in this fallen place in the first place? Why doesn't He just make it all stop?"

I love the line from a Chris Rice song that responds to those questions with, "Maybe it's because He loves us that He's giving us more time here."

No, it's not always a fun place to be, but perhaps He's not snatching us out of it because there are so many that have chosen not to believe Him. He wants to give us all a chance to experience the joy and peace that comes with throwing caution to the wind and getting to know Him. He wants us to know Him, to realize He's more than worth knowing, so that when He takes us home to a perfect place we'll know Who it is we'll be joining.

Maybe we groan because there is something at the core of each one of us that just wants to go home.

I believe that we humans made a choice to separate ourselves from God, making our own road back to Him quite long. The result of our turning from Him in our free will is that He has to respect that. He has to let us go. Why would He want a forced love? So we go. Just as if our kids turned to us and said, "I don't want to follow your rules, you're not the boss of me, I'm leaving."

Oh how we would want them home. But we'd have to let them decide to get to know how much we truly love them, to trust us, and to return.

I think that the fact that there is so much good and beauty in the middle of all of this is the proof of the God we're looking for. I can't believe that He continues to lavish such gifts on us despite our propensity to rebel, to control, to fix things for ourselves. Despite our pride.

I'm humbled by that.

Jess, you asked me once how I can believe in God's plan when it includes children living in pain. "Why did Asher have to hurt for that greater good to be accomplished?" (and I paraphrase.) I've thought more about that recently...

I don't think God planned for Asher to be hurt, to have a brain surgery at age one. I don't think He likes it one bit. BUT, our life story here at the EO household is still in His hands, in His will. As we "free will" our way through and come up against the groans of humanity, He is turning all of it to good, somewhere, somehow, molding it to his will (if you will :).

I don't believe He strikes us down randomly. I think disease is a result of a fallen world, not something God plans. In short (ha!) He takes all the bad, that of our own doing and what's simply happening because this place is a mess, and he brings it back to good. Sometimes not in the timely way we expect, but in a perfect way that we would accept if only we were able to see the very biggest picture. The very end. The grand dream come true. Eternity. Infinity. Whoa.

The messes and the pain are something He redeems. He uses it all to bring beauty, grace, wisdom, and perspective. In our trials we learn what love really means, it grows deeper in us and then it's shared. So many times we're not even aware of what an impact our trials have on us and those who are changed in a positive way like a ripple effect.

He doesn't have to do that. But He does. He could say, "Well, most of you want nothing to do with me so good luck...see ya...I'm turning my face from you." But He doesn't.

And I'm humbled.

In the days I feared for Asher He drew me closer to Him because I so fully knew He was there...It's when your hurting, terrified and desparate that you start to see Him sometimes. I don't think He's playing games though. He's not making us hurt so we'll notice Him. I think it's that our pride finally is set aside in those moments and we can finally see Him.

He was there when the IV went in so easily for Asher's surgery. The nurses were stumped, shocked, and so happy. Not a peep out of the little Ash Man. Miraculous.

He was there when an unbelievable peace washed over me as I watched the clock and waited for the neurosurgeon to come and tell us Asher was OK.

He was there when Asher drifted off to sleep in his hospital bed despite hours of agitation, crying and pain. A peaceful sleep through the night. A miracle, in his condition.

And that's humbling. Because I ignore Him so much of the time. I don't believe He's going to carry me through sometimes. I even doubt His existence, and especially His never-ending grace, and yet He never fails to fit himself into the corners of my humanity...healing, loving, comforting, holding...Doing the very things He would do if we had lost Asher. I'm pretty sure I would have lost my mind if that were the outcome, but I would have somehow survived it.

And that too would be a miracle.

Healing that kind of pain? Miraculous. Humbling. I know for certain that is not something I could do on my own. Sometimes he heals the pain in the child, and when He cannot because of a much bigger picture than we can see, He's healing the parents through a million small miracles that all add up to love.

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OK, I'm done.

(Almost.)

In every explanation or attempt at understanding exactly how God works there are gaps. Things that we just don't like. We all want so badly to escape the horrors of this life. We want it all to make perfect sense. We want perfect answers that take away the pain. But we just don't. That's where the trust comes in. To come to a place of knowing that God really is good. All the time. And then believing that even in death, there is hope...in that biggest picture happy ending.

Dear Jess,

(if you're new here, you can start at the beginning of the conversation with Jess, HERE.)

It's been awhile since I've written any kind of response to your thoughts or mine. So I have to apologize in advance if this is too much at once. I've been thinking a lot about what to say and I've had a hard time knowing what to write because there are some things that we haven't gotten into yet, and without those things it's hard to know where to go next. I want to know what you think about these things. So...HOLD ON, here we go: :)

I've just started this book called "Walking with God" by John Eldredge. It will most likely take me about a year to read it, but I'm going to try. I love this writer. I love the way he thinks and how he expresses himself. The first pages got me thinking about our conversation.

Christian or not, we've all got this longing. It's what brought you to the point of asking, "But HOW do you know God? How do you believe?" And it's what keeps me asking, "Am I finding Him, am I doing this right?"

If He were not there, our Creator and source, I highly doubt we'd be so concerned. Sure, we'd be bombarded with people's opinions of a Higher Power, religious ideals and theological guesses. But both you and I know that those things are not what pull at the deepest parts of us.

He does.

I believe that He made us to be in relationship with Him. One that runs much deeper than Sunday mornings, being good and doing right, and checking off some list of tasks that need to be done in order to be considered religious.

Sometimes I feel like you and I are actually more on the same page than you would ever think. Because even though I am a Christian and I do believe, I'm still struggling to make a connection in a way that means I'm truly in relationship with God. And a lot of that has to do with me. It's not about Him being distant and abstract, it's about me not knowing exactly how to walk with Him the way He made me to walk with Him, and not thinking that I'm good enough.

I came flawed in the first place. And then I made mistakes and believed a lot of lies that have kept me feeling "not good enough" for that walk with God. I know this so fully about myself. It is one of the things that keeps me aware that there really are forces of good and evil.

I believe that the evil in this world also has a source. And that mean dude will do everything he can to keep us from the relationship with God we're longing for. (Yes, I just said "mean dude," because it sounds less crazy religious than satan) It's what every good movie and book is based on. Artists and writers are drawn to writing and expressing stories of good overcoming evil because it exists. And we're drawn to reading and watching these stories because we too know that we're fighting against something dark. We're fighting it because we're inherently good, made in God's image.

Now I'm not saying this so you picture a big red man with horns on his head and a long tail, peeking around the corner, waiting to pounce on you. I don't think we have to look at it like that. I think if we've lived very long we're pretty aware of a whole lot of evil in the world, a lot of hard things that don't come from a loving God.

Sometimes I think it's pretty frustrating that God would have us here dealing with any kind of evil at all. And other times I understand that there is a much greater depth of love and understanding that come through trials. I don't think God looks at us like a bunch of guinea pigs, watching and waiting to see what we'll do with our latest test.

I do believe that we've made a choice. It started with Adam and Eve in the garden, the day they went against what God asked and chose themselves over God. That's what we still have a tendency to do. God allowed all of that because He would much rather have us choose Him, than to be forced into relationship with Him. I think about my kids a lot when I try to work through that. Do I want them to love me because they know me and find me lovable and worthy of their love? Or do I want to control them into loving me? Even though it's risky, I'd have to say I want them to choose me. I want a genuine love. And so does He.

Okay, that's probably about enough for today. I've most likely sounded like a zealot of some sort, but I just wanted to put some of the basics behind my beliefs out there. I may not have done a very good job, but I hope I made some semblance of sense. Take your time and let me know what you think.

Thank you again for putting up with my scattered thoughts and ideas,
Heather

(If you're new here and would like to start at the beginning of this conversation, click HERE.)

More from Jess

Below is my most recent email from Jess. Once again, I want to thank her for her candid way of expressing herself. Jess, you are NOT offending anyone with your questions. We can all see that your tone is one of careful questioning, not of judgment. Thank you for that.

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I have read and re-read the posts in Highway, but Sabrina's most recent post about giving touches on another subject/list of questions I have.

Actually, I feel that she said what I've always thought was "more right" if there was actually a "more right". I remember the money basket going around the pews when I was small, but I didn't understand what it was or what it meant, and I had never known the word tithe.

After I met my husband, he explained the theory on tithing, the 10% rule. But I always wondered if Jesus was himself poor, and taught people for free, how does it make sense for common churches to consider tithing 10% of their earnings as WHAT they're supposed to do to give? I understand giving enough to allow a pastor to live completely in his passion of teaching God's way, but it seems that the act of giving has come to dollars and cents as opposed to aiding common folk through common sense.

Maybe my feelings on this topic are touchy because I haven't ever been and don't forsee a time in the near future where I can afford to give up 10% of ANYthing I make. Paycheck to paycheck prevents that. And I guess I feel a bit angry at the idea of going to church and knowing I'd feel guilty for not being able to contribute much to a tithing bucket. I feel like it would be expected, watched over, and judged by the neighbors sharing my row of seats. I feel a bit angry that if I didn't hand over that ten percent, I'd be judged as not worthy of the praise lavished by "good Christians".

Please don't take this last paragraph as angry-sounding; if we were speaking face to face, you would see that it's not. I just get confused by the "rule of tithing" versus my ideas of giving and versus my guilt for what I can and cannot do and versus my perception of how I am judged by those who believe and do as the tithing rule states.That's a lot of versuses. Sorry if it gets confusing to read. It's all a jumble in my head most times.

I have read just a bit of the conversion diary, but intend to go back and read more. I enjoyed her five step plan post in April 2008, I felt it made "sense"...which I am figuring out is a common theme. I don't think, for the most part, any of you have been speaking "Christianese" as you all put it. :) I appreciate the effort everyone has made to put things into "simple terms" for this confused gal. IT HELPS.

I hope you've had a wonderful weekend and that today has started off a great week for you. I hope to get to a bookstore later today to browse through selections in the Religion section. Wish me luck that the children will behave long enough for me to find what I need/want!

Jessica

Dear Heather (and friends)

The latest email from Jess:

I am going to attempt to see where I want to proceed in this conversation...I think that's why I'm hesitating in my response. I'm not sure where to go NEXT. I don't want to use the word overwhelm...I don't feel that emotionally...I guess the best way to describe what I'm feeling is UNDERTIMED. LOL I've found it hard to find time to reflect. I'm anxious to get to a bookstore and look these books up. I am not certain I will have many valid questions without starting some "research".

My first goal was to try and hear real stories about HOW you feel, how you CAME to feel, what it means to believe that Jesus' death saves us....I guess I would like to read through Midnight Cafe's post and see what questions I get from there. After that, I will re-read your most recent post and see what questions I have from there. Here goes:

With regard to the Bible - I guess the cynic in me says this: If the Bible is truly God's word (inspired or direct), then the mistakes that are bound to occur from translation don't affect me, and seem insignificant. BUT...if the Bible is just a combination of stories that old men made up and passed off as a "higher being's" philosophy for life to scare the commonfolk, then it bothers me. I do think that the stories in the Bible provide a good basis for solid, healthy living. I also feel that some people who base their life on religion twist the stories in the Bible to say doing THIS or doing THAT is "evil". I don't want that to sound judgmental, but even re-reading it I fear it will come across that way.

I want to say that the last paragraph that Midnight Cafe wrote about acting in a human way vs. Christian way really hit home and made SENSE to me. Thank you for that.

Heather - these recommendations are wonderful. The blogs AND the books and the studyguides. I am going to look for some this weekend, and take time to go read these blogs this week. I bought my Bible years ago, and have not been able to find a way to crack it open. I knew there were studies available and the "read it in a year" help guides, but I was afraid if I started it alone, I wouldn't have anyone to bounce my questions off to. So thank YOU for this forum, again. I know I've been saying it a lot, but it's easier for me to do while typing rather than in person. I think I'd get too nervous in person! Choke up, forget my words, babble about nothing. Much like right now. I will be back with more questions, but in the meantime....thank you to EVERYONE who has responded and will hopefully continue to do so. In the near future, I might put this information and link on my blog to point others in this direction. I'm just not ready to "face" the bloggy
world with my religious ignorance. LOL

Good night!
Jessica

From Heather:
A HUGE thank you to Jess, once again. I appreciate the candid way you express yourself. That's how I do it too, so of course I like it :)

(The bold emphasis in Jess' email is mine. Not because I found it judgmental, but important. I will respond to Jess in post form very soon.)

Dear Jess,

I was relieved by these words in Jessica's last email (yesterday or the day before):

"I hope you know how much you are helping me. It was stories like these that I really needed to hear in order to see where people come from....and I don't know if books about "miracles" were going to help. You did, however, suggest some books, so feel free to pass those titles along whenever you get a chance. Happy New Year!"

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Dear Jess,
I'm so glad to hear that our conversations have been more helpful than totally overwhelming :)

(Thank you to those of you who have shared your stories in comments and emails. That's a vulnerable thing to do, but I whole-heartedly believe that when we tell our own personal stories, the message of the beliefs within them become more valid. When we can speak from our hearts rather than talking in vague terms about religion, we learn more than we thought possible from each other.)

You asked if it would be okay to take a few days to ponder things. Absolutely not, hurry up!! (Kidding of course.) Take your time, lady. A lot has been said, so much to chew on. If I were you it would take me two weeks to respond.

You and I have also been talking about books that might help, so below are my recommendations. There are quite a few, but I thought if I gave you a bunch to check out, you could decide what interests you the most:

Philip Yancey:
"What So Amazing About Grace?"
"Soul Survivor"

Anne Lamott:
"Traveling Mercies"
"Plan B: More Toughts on Faith"

John Eldredge:
"The Sacred Romance"
"Waking the Dead"

Francine Rivers:
"Redeeming Love" (fiction)

You also asked about starting to read the Bible and wondered about recommendations for where to begin. Many people think the New Testament is the best place to start. I think it's difficult to just sit down and read the Bible at any point without some guidance, especially if it's new to you. I would encourage you to get a study to go along with what you choose to read. Some are cheesier than others, or maybe even just boring. So I'm hoping someone could give recommendations for good studies in the comments.

Any Bible study by Beth Moore is excellent in my opinion. I love how she so frequently teaches the definition of the words of the Bible from the original language. Learning the original definitions of the words has been one of the key things in having the Bible "come alive" for me. I am constantly saying, "OH, so that's what He meant." I'm moved and touched by how I can see LOVE in what He was saying when I truly understand it.

I'm pretty sure you could get Beth Moore studies on Amazon or something. There are books and workbooks that carry you through certain parts of the Bible. It might all sound kind of foreign at first (the studies) but I think if you're patient with it, you'll be surprised (in a good way) by God's intentions for you. He has the ability to make the Bible "come alive" for you too.

I also wanted to pass on two blog links for you.
Conversion Diary (a former atheist becomes a believer)
Bring the Rain (a Christian music artist's wife who lost a full-term baby girl shares her faith and her walk through grief)
(the links are going to take you directly to two posts I think might be of some help to you.)

I love it that you're interested in giving Bible reading a try, you brave woman! Be patient with yourself and open to it taking some time to grasp what's so great about it :) I know if you're taking this step of faith, God will speak to you. I just know He will. Cause He rocks.

Love,
Heather

Dear Jess

(If you're new here, the most recent posts are comprised of a conversation between myself (Heather) and a reader/friend, Jess. The conversation has grown to include a few more friends in the comments and I'm loving that. Thank you all for coming along.)

(If you'd like to start at the beginning, you can click HERE for the first post.)

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Dear Jess,
Hopefully you aren't getting too overwhelmed! There's a lot being said here and I hope that as you wade through it all it's helping rather than frustrating you.

I hope it's o.k. that I speak for all of those who have responded when I say that it's tricky to find words. Because this discussion is about faith, it's hard not to speak too much Christianese. I think about that a lot in my own life. When I'm talking to someone who's not a Christian about theological stuff, I often have to laugh at how I must sound. I just wanted to let you know that I'll do my best to not use phrases and terms that don't make much sense.

After the last post, Midnight Cafe (a contributor to this blog) left a comment I want to quote here because I think it's really important.

"I'm wondering if looking for proof that God exists OR if you're more in the position of believing that there *is* a God but you're not sure how people have a relationship with that God. Maybe you're wondering about both.

And, clearly, you're wondering about the Bible...how we know that Bible is really God's word, how we know it hasn't changed over time...that sort of thing."

I've gotten the impression through our email correspondence that you're asking not WHY a person would believe (since you don't think it's ridiculous), but rather HOW. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I should help clarify.

Now on to my response to your last email (finally).

Your thoughts about the Bible are totally valid. If we're being honest it seems a bit far-fetched to trust a bunch of imperfect humans to get the Word of God written by hand and call it good. For me that's exactly why I'm blown away by it's validity. It seems impossible, but even though it was created the way it was, it speaks to my mind and heart in a way no other book can. It's not that we're dumb, I think it's that we can't wrap our minds around God's bigness (yes, that's a word.) He is perfectly capable of using men to do things that only He can do, we just like to give Him human qualities, restrictions and limitations. So when the ink was in the hands of men, God was really the one doing the writing, knowing exactly what He meant and how people would respond. I think God knew there would be a lot of disbelief and worked his book to speak at the right time to each individual as they seek it and try to understand. It's like there was a different Bible written for each of us. You know, a spiritual phenomenon if you will. We are always evolving, changing, learning...and as we do, the Bible does it with us, different parts of it speaking to us at different times. That's what I mean about the Bible coming to life for me. It's aliiiive. (: That's what makes it different than other books even on the same topics.

For example, as I went through my years of being frustrated with "the church," I kind of shut down my belief system for awhile. I needed a time of quiet, without all the doctrinal stuff floating through my head. I'm a distracted person, always have been. I've never been good at just sitting with the Bible, praying, doing Bible Studies, etc. And I always felt like that was bad, or I was wrong and should feel guilty. I needed somewhere to start, but didn't know what to do, I just get so stuck in feeling like I'm not up to this whole Christianity task.

I'm a sensitive person who is easily sad and down on myself. Since I believe God made me, I think He knows this full well. He knows therefore what my specific needs are. He knew I needed to hear that I am loved fully no matter how lame I can be. So he met me there through His word. When I was reading and learning (here and there) I was being plowed over with verses that spoke to my hurting heart. I didn't have much self-worth and finally the Bible started to act as the tool to heal that.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." James 1:5

For once, I didn't think something along the lines of "oh, that's nice." I was hit right in the heart, I could see that I needed to get that, to really get that He... "gives generously to ALL without finding fault..." I was blown away by this verse and so many like it because they screamed God's love to me. Instead of being a big book of do's and dont's, I started to realize that God just wanted me to read it so He could tell me as often as possible that I'm loved, just exactly as I am.

When I opened myself up to that perspective, I started to see the Bible in a new way. I recently heard a woman speak on this. She talked about how we need to start imagining ourselves IN the stories of the Bible, to be the woman at the well, to be a part of the crowds receiving the fish and the loaves, all the while coming from the idea that God is showing LOVE in every every story, even the ones that don't seem that loving.

That's enough on that for now. I do go on and on and I don't want to do that. I'll be saying much more about the Bible as I tell you my personal story in bits and pieces if that's o.k.

PHEW.

Your second question had to do with "praying the prayer," the feeling of getting saved and what that entails. I'll start by saying that I believe that coming to a belief in Christ is not always so black and white. I believe it can be a process. I think there is more than one way to "accept Christ," if that makes sense. Sometimes that can be kind of a slow dance, moving toward a full acceptance of all that He is. I don't necessarily think a person needs to have a date and time of the moment they suddenly believed. Some people think the Bible is saying you DO have to be that certain, that clear...but you know what? We're all different. God is the one that made us that way. Not every person is going to have a clear cut "come to Jesus" moment. I have dear friends that are good examples of that. They may have never "prayed the prayer" in the way we're taught we're supposed to, but they've been "praying the prayer" in the sense that they pray, they believe, they're growing and changing...they are Christians just like a girl like me who prayed the prayer a gazillion times, trying to fix myself. In the end, maybe it's more about coming to a fullness of peace in knowing that Jesus was who He said He was, and He loves us like crazy. Then we take it from there and ride the faith train, learning more as we go.

I'll shut up now.

As usual, I'm looking forward to more thoughts from you,
Heather

Dear Heather

I began telling Jess my own personal faith story in the last post. This is her response to that post and to your comments. I'll post my response to her questions tomorrow.
(My email from Jess)
My first reactions were:
1. The ladies who commented were very, very sweet.

2. I got nervous about posting under my blogger name (I could create an anon but don't really want to do that) because I still felt, just from reading their responses, that although some say they came to understand as an adult...they still sound so..."church-savvy" (in a completely unoffensive way) I'm afraid I still won't be able to relate.

My first thought I wanted to share with YOU was about the Bible. With a one sentence description on my feelings and struggles with it: it's scribed by men from men from men...and to me it becomes the "telephone cup" game of sorts where you pass along a message so many times that "I love to eat bananas" becomes "May I shovel the feet of camels". Know what I mean? I do believe THIS about the Bible - the essential meaning and lessons give a great "to do" list for living a good, honest, meaningful and CARING life. Please share your story about how your views on it changed, as you see fit and when you want. I'd love to hear more of that.

My second thoughts were to ask these questions if anyone is willing to elaborate and share:

Heidi - Thank you for being honest and not feeling "put off" by the fact that those who have always known are somewhat of a mystery to me. LOL Hopefully in time I can relate to what you say with regard to this topic.

Sara@butterville - What types of "other" things had you tried and how did you become certain that HE was the one moving things in your life, that it wasn't just "life" happening?

Kazzy - How do you experience a "two way" relationship with God? How are you certain that what's happening is two way?

Growin' with it - Just reading "it will always be a process" and "I don't ever expect to figure out God" helps more than you know. I'm a SOLID THOUGHT person. I have to have definitive answers and solutions. I hate leaving things open-ended, and I fear that this search will still feel that way once I am done or give up.

Brooke - If she is willing to share any of her experiences that solidified the knowledge, I'd love to learn of them. The quote was wonderful, thank you for sharing. I think it'll be something I hang onto for awhile.

Lastly, for you since you mentioned it and it's something my husband repeats as what he KNOWS and feels about religion - accepting Jesus as your Savior. I understand why we should do this, in the most general sense. But other than saying "sure, he might have offered up his son under the presumption we'll be saved because of this act"....how did anyone come to FEEL this acceptance and that you were "saved" because of it? I follow the story, I think I believe that Jesus existed on Earth as a man to share what he believed was the word of his Father...but from here it gets gray for me. I hope this doesn't qualify as blasphemy - that would really suck. LOL

I will stop now...you talk about YOU rambling...sheesh. I am not even going to spell check!
Thank you for giving me a forum/sanctuary of sorts to read and talk about this but still feel like I'm under my blankets. I've already been told I'm going to hell back in college because I didn't know what I believed, and I really don't feel like hearing it anymore, even if I AM doomed to it. LOL

Jess

Dear Jess

*Disclaimer: I'm no theologian and I don't have all the answers. This is simply a discussion among friends and these are my thoughts and feelings as a part of that conversation. Some will agree and some will disagree and that's cool with me. Please accept my story as my experience, not as right or wrong.

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Dear Jess,

I wish I had a nicely wrapped answer for you. With a bow on it. But I guess if it were that easy, you most likely would have received it already. :)

Most likely I will go on and on, but I want to get the conversation (on my end) rolling by keeping it short and sweet so you don't have to respond to a huge lengthy ramble. (Have you noticed I have a tendency to ramble?)

That said, I'll begin the story of how I came to a certainty of belief.

I did grow up in church (of the Baptist variety.) I never disliked it. I had fun with my church friends and found going to church on Wednesday nights and Sundays to be more of a social thing than actually learning about God. Because I was just a kid, and in my insecurity I cared more about what boy liked me than memorizing verses. But I did "accidentally" come to believe what I was being taught (for the most part.) My parents are also Christians, so there was a lot of talk of Jesus in my house too. I'm thankful that this foundation was there because it has really helped me as I've made my faith my own in adulthood. I'm simply admitting here that I don't think my faith was all that genuine until much later in my life. I was missing some very important things that would open my eyes and heart more than I had thought possible.

Early on, I was taught that a person needed to pray a certain prayer and "accept Jesus as their Savior." It seemed to me that was the most important thing because that gets you into Heaven (PHEW). From there, it appeared that having faith was about lifestyle. (Going to church, no drinking, no smoking, no swearing...)

(I must say here that this was MY impression, it's not how every Christian thinks, I'm sure. But that's how Christianity appeared to me as a child.)

So up until I was an adult, I think I "prayed the prayer" about a thousand times, every chance I got. I had this sneaking suspicion that I wasn't good enough so I should probably keep trying to make sure I wasn't going to Hell.

In my early twenties I finally started to see that walking with God was not just about an afterlife. I now believe that we focus a bit too much on that. Sure, it's very important to have an assurance of your final destination, but I think that final destination may take care of itself if we could learn more about freedom in Christ in this life. Coming to know that freedom means a person has come to know HIM for who He really is, and if we do that, I'm of the opinion He'll welcome us to Him in person one day cause we'll be friends and stuff. (I have no idea if that sentence made sense, sorry.)

I'll continue this possibly very boring story after your response. As I tell it, hopefully I'll answer your question of HOW a person comes to believe. I don't think there's a specific answer to that, like I said before. But I have my story to tell of how it's been for me and I hope that will help.

Lastly, I want to throw a little something in about the Bible. Because I'm a Christian a lot of the knowledge I have of God comes from His book. I have to admit that for much of my life I found the Bible to be somewhat...boring, unrelatable, and really confusing. As we carry on our conversation I'll tell you how that changed as well. I'm now finally understanding how God's Spirit works with we humans, opening our eyes to see things in a way that we couldn't if we didn't ask for His eyes. His word came alive for me and I was actually quite shocked (and impressed) by that.

Jess, I want to say that as I was cutting and pasting your emails in last night for the first post, I found myself more and more impressed by YOU. I appreciate that you aren't judgmental, you're so thoughtful, funny and just plain kind. Thank you.

I SO look forward to hearing from you,
Heather